Seefree: Hello ive been reading the forums on and off for a couple of years now and my neurological symptoms of brain burning, eye strain, vertigo, blood shot eyes, severw tinnitus etc. continue to worsen . Ive been diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome and immune dysfuction and am disabled due to it. I do all my shopping and communication with doctors on my brothers surface pro 4, only for minutes at a time. I tried using my aunts 2015 mbp with intel gpu but it was the worst searing brain and eye burn And developed auras withh migraine and my moms samsung chromebook not as bad as the mbp but worse than the surface pro 4. Iphones also feel like the mbp. surface pro 4 core m3 windows lateat update can tolerate the best out of all tried laptops, tablets, phones, but still only for a limited time and its not mine -my old hp desktop with ati radeon 5xxx and lg matte screen very bad brain burning and eye burning latest win 10 fall creators update. -Iphone 6 okay moderate symptoms -Ipod touch 6 gen same as iphone 6 -Ipad mini 1 severe migraines -Iphone 8 plus severe anxiety and head pressure and blurry vision -Old dell xps 13 okay (long gone) -Dell studio xps 1650 very bad -Samsung galaxy s5 and note 5 very bad cannot tolerate amoled screens at all. Im pretty sure my main problem is due to any form of dithering as i bet all apple products apple this to macOS and iOS. Also the weird thing is that i thought the kindle voyage would solve problems but it caused the same problems maybe even worse , even tried the one without the backlight smae thing—- i justvread the e readers use dithering too ,CRAZY. I really need a laptop that does not have any dithering or pwm. Since i am able to tolerate my brothers surface pro 4 a little should i try a surface book 2 with ditherig installed? They both also dont have pwm according to notebookcheck.net also looking for a Fanless device as i am in bed a lot due to my disabilty. Any suggestions or experiences with the surface pro or surfce books or other viable laptops ? Greatly appreciate it. Seefree: system action martin: Sorry to hear that. Could you please write more about your medical background and how you got diagnosed, what the suggested treatments are etc.? Also did you do all tests including MRI? Also maybe where you are from and what your job was previously to this condition, how much you were using the computers, when did you first find the symptoms? Regarding laptops, I use old tech now, bought another of the same 8year old acer laptop. And I am trying to get medical help and desensitize myself to these triggers. Seefree: martin ive been sick for 6 years now and was diagnosed based on cdc criteria, but if you do more tesearch younwill find a lot more things i recomend the documentary “unrest” by jen brea and the phoenixeising forums to learn all about cfs/me and other related conditions. Brain mri eeg fine. But also dx with mutiple chemical sensitivities and emf sensitivity due to past mold exposure , ehlers danlos syndrome and mast cell activation disorder. Im pretty much bedbound and totally housebound since becoming sick. I am really sensitive to fluorescent lughts and esp led lightbulbs. martin: Seefree Im really sorry to hear this. Is there any hope for a treatment? I recommended in another thread about desensitization the wim hof method, maybe it could help you. There is also a facebook support group. All can be researched and done for free (as I did), but you can also pay for courses. You can try the breathing exercises and not the cold exposure, if youre already in an exhausted state. Seefree: martin thanks for your concern but ive seen the worlds top specialist, over 70 doctors, specialist, naturopaths, functional medicine docs every subspecialty and over $100,000 in treatments and doctors bills , but im still looking and hoping. Will Hoff i remember early in my disease but tje ice water would a death snetamce for me if i were to try that now lol. Which acer notebook do you use? martin: Seefree Man I am really sorry to hear that. Its weird and also interesting you have the same or very similar symptoms, but so much more pronounced. I use acer 5820tg with dual Intel and ATI radeon graphics, its 2010 and I have original win 7 home premium on it. Generally people shared here that Dell xps 15 9560 with win 10 pre anniversary vesion (before 1703, ideally 1511) was the best they ever use, but you might try a few as they might have slightly different displays. Please where are you from, USA? Seefree: martin yea usa california Seefree: Anyone else? How is the dell xps 13 dithering does ditherig get rid of it? ryans: Seefree There are two known causes of dithering on that laptop: 1. Intel Graphics drivers 2. Windows 10 Anniversary Build and up 2 is not confirmed, but I think at least one on here is confident it's true. ditherig.exe can get rid of dithering, it helped some people on here, but does not help me. I hope you can find a laptop that works for you. Some people have had success using Linux with modesetting (non Intel) drivers on some laptops. JTL: ryans ATI/AMD GPU's dither as well. It's very hit and miss. Some Nvidia 900 and 1000 series cards appear to do dithering on the GPU output, even in the BIOS, and there is currently no way to disable it. The above isn't really applicable to laptops as the vast marjority of laptops run their display outputs through the Intel GPU even when the Nvidia card is actually rendering frames. Peter: I can use a Win 10 Pro Dell Inspiron 15 3000 with AMD Radeon Graphics R5 M430 v17.1.1 and Intel Core i5 7th Gen, but i need to have brightness at 100%, night mode always on (middle of the bar), in Dell Display settings the Blue Light at minus 31 and finally Crizal glasses on. With this combination i can work all day without any real problems. Furthermore, If I take regular breaks (as everyone should do) the laptop is causing no issues at all. martin: Peter Whats the version of windows pro youre using? Gurm: I see that most of your computers are using newer versions of Windows 10. Do yourself a favor and get an older version installed, and then block updates. You'll be so glad you did. Dell XPS 13 with the matte screen, and Dell XPS 15 with the matte screen (not touch, not glossy, just the 1080p matte) and windows 10 1511 or 1589 are pretty much the safest screens on the market today that we know of. Peter: martin Windows 10 Pro Version 1709 OS Build 16299.309 Gurm: Yeah 1709 has you hating life. That's the "creator's update". You're literally 2 years too new. martin: Gurm its been said somewhere, but once again, how do you block updates on non pro versikn? Ive seen some hack file here available, but im afraid of it to be a trojan. ryans: Gurm Are you concerned about security risks with blocking updates? JTL: ryans I'd personally be concermed too about blocking updates but Microsoft should fix the underlying issue that causes the eyestrain in newer Windows 10 builds. martin: ryans im not. Scanning with malware/antivirus every second day is better than headaches. JTL: martin antivirus alone won't save you. I'd personally use Windows 7 or 8.1 in your position. I still think Microsoft should figure out what's wrong and solve the root cause. It should be doable. martin: JTL Did anyone start a thread there or did we write them a petition? If not lets do it. JTL: martin I think @Gurm would be the best suited to do such a thing, as he is the most technical person who has first hand expereince of this issue. I'd be willing to proofread any posts and/or letters before he sends them too. Seefree: Gurm okay i might try out a dell xps 13. Is yours the 9350 or 9360? Ive had 3 dells in my lifetime and all of them had quality build issues with overheating, poor build quality, driver issues, and never lastet longer than 3 years before having overheating problems. Ive never considered a dell since. How are the dell xps 13s ive reas a lot of bad stories with not being able to turn off the intel adaptive nrightness CABC or whatever its called, build issues and coil whine. Seefree: JTL can i install windows 7 on a new windows 10 machcine? JTL: Seefree If it's too new, you might have driver issues. Seefree: JTL ah right i think i remember reading about how skylake intel processors and newer will only work on windows 10 now. JTL: Seefree My brother has an HP Zbook 15 G3 with an i7-6700HQ (I think) and it's possible though not trivial to install Windows 7. I wouldn't recomend it for you, he doesn't have "this issue" or anything similar to begin with. Gurm: I am strapped for time lately with personal stuff, but I'm HAPPY to write the petition if someone else can do a little legwork to find out who at MS to submit it to. Once I have some more time (late spring, early summer) I can even take lead on this initiative. If someone else wants to sign on here to run point temporarily, I'll totally do the tech write up. I would suggest that we file it as a bug. I do have the ability to open premier tickets through my work but that would unfortunately be misappropriation of work funds. UPDATE: I have reached out to my corporate TAM (technical account manager) for advice on how to engage with MS on this issue. If this were a problem with users at my office, I'd be raising this with her and with the Premier support team who can directly interface with development leads if needed... but it's not a work issue so I've asked her how to proceed, hoping she can connect us with the right person/people there. Gurm: Gurm @JTL I got a reply from my TAM. She is sympathetic, and is reaching out to one of her counterparts in consumer support. It's not the same on the consumer side, which makes this more difficult. If this were a problem facing my organization, we'd have a bug fix a resolution or timeline for one within a few weeks, interfacing directly with top-tier technical resources who can talk to the developers. But I think she was impressed that we knew exactly what build caused the problems and what feature we believe to be the origin of the issue. So maybe we'll get some traction! Fingers crossed. JTL: Gurm Good luck JTL: Gurm There's a new Windows 10 build called the "Spring Creators Update" coming out soon. I doubt it's going to solve this issue but it might be worth a quick test just in case to avoid wasting anyone's time. ryans: Gurm Hi Gurm, any luck with this? ryans: JTL @Gurm The "Choose Your GPU" option might offer some relief for Intel graphics people with dual graphics, although IIRC Intel graphics might still render the final output: https://www.cnet.com/how-to/best-new-features-of-windows-10-spring-creators-update/ JTL: ryans IIRC Intel graphics might still render the final output I 100% doubt Windows 10 2018 update magically makes the screen take input from the dedicated GPU on an Optimus laptop, since it's a hardware limitation (screen is directly connected to Intel graphics). This is confirmed under Linux with reverse engineered driver as well. And does Windows 10 2018 update fix the eyestrain issues @Gurm was talking about? AGI: Seefree Very sorry to hear that. I am new to this forum and someone suggested e-ink solutions in another thread. I am strongly considering purchasing an ONYX BOOX Max 2 which has a 13.3" e-ink display and can be used as a standalone tablet and as a monitor. Probably with ghosting and other downsides but it may be worth exploring. Most guys really know about computers here, contrarily to me, so it may be nothing new to them but I just found out that two big companies, Eink and Sony, are working on the first e-ink laptop https://goodereader.com/blog/e-paper/sony-is-developing-an-e-ink-laptop https://youtu.be/NP1Y7QMAah8 Hopefully we do not have to wait long. This is really new, dated April 16, 2018, and seems to confirm that Sony is still working on e-ink https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/4/16/17242014/sony-digital-paper-dpt-cp1-e-ink-tablet-announced-japan Seefree -Iphone 6 okay moderate symptoms -Ipod touch 6 gen same as iphone 6 -Ipad mini 1 severe migraines -Iphone 8 plus severe anxiety and head pressure and blurry vision This is not really laptop-related but since you mentioned it and I am having now troubles also with smartphones I would like to comment. I read some people who are intolerant to IPhone X's AMOLED display downgraded to IPhone 8 without any symptom. I definitely cannot stand IPhone X, so I thought I would be fine with an IPhone 8 or 7. I tried one and the other for 20 minutes in a shop on separate days and had moderate eyestrain afterwards, IPhone 8 feeling more aggressive. Considering the extent of the investment I passed on both. Now, if I understand IPhone 8 and 7 are proved to be PWM-free, so what bothers me must be else or also else. Maybe dithering as you say? Seefree Im pretty sure my main problem is due to any form of dithering as i bet all apple products apple this to macOS and iOS. Sunspark: Gurm If you're facing this problem as a member of your organization while at work which has led to issues involving you avoiding builds that other people are on, is this not considered a work issue? Maybe you're just one guy that you know of, but it's undeniable that you have been affected.. As a side note, my work has started rolling out some Thinkpad laptop to people with Win 10 on it. I'm going to try and stay on my HP with 7 as long as I can, they upgrade every 3 years and I'm already past 3 years but they also tend to forget to do the upgrades unless you ask for it. I hate 10 almost as much as I hate Office 365. Other than the fact that the screens have less vibrancy on the bigscreen wall displays, Windows 8.1 and 10 both use GREYSCALE font anti-aliasing. I do not understand why anyone finds this acceptable on a PC. I get it, it makes sense on a tablet or mobile because of changing angles, and so forth, but on a PC with a panel that is not 4K or 8K? No. That's garbage. Slacor: system action AGI: What is this? https://betanews.com/2018/05/09/system76-oryx-pro-linux-laptop/ Any hope? JTL: AGI No one knows. I have some initial thoughts of the specifications I will post later. JTL: Seefree i just read the e readers use dithering too if your talking about the Dasung Paperlike and dithering, it's caused by the GPU output similar to the dithering sensitivity you are having with various devices. The Dasuing itself does no "moving image" dithering. ryans: On my HP EliteBook Laptop for work (that does give me eyestrain), I noticed something very odd. It's a TN display and thus has bad viewing angles. When the display is tilted up (away from the keyboard) , I can see a strange flicker-flash -- it almost looks like PWM. Only when the display is tilted can I see this. Connecting this laptop to an external monitor still bothers me but not nearly as much as looking at the laptop screen directly. So on this laptop, I think the problem is PWM + maybe Dithering + perhaps something else Windows 10 does. JTL: ryans Which Elitebook? Seagull: Hi Seefree, This quite offtopic, but I can't find a personal message button so I'll just leave this here, I was diagnosed with CFS about 12years ago, and like you was bed bound but managed to find relief in trying something called the 'Specific Carbohydrate Diet' which helped me alot, I'd say now I am 50-75% better with most of the improvement occurring in the first month or two. As I am sure you know your own experiences every CFS case is different, and these lifestyle diets can be kinda cult-like so I don't blame you if you give it a miss! I had concurrent digestive problems with my CFS so trying all the weird diets was a priority. /diversion over, everyone resume talking about laptops 🙂 Gurm: So this weekend I made a very unusual discovery. I've had a laptop kicking around for a while - it's a Dell Workstation replacement. Probably a 2015 model. It has Intel Pro 530 (P530) graphics, and a secondary ATI FireGL Pro. And it's perfectly usable for me. In Windows 10 original release (or LTSB 2015) it is wonderful. It is even tolerable with the Creator's Update, although not perfect it was usable for an hour or so without significant eyestrain. I'm going to pull exact model numbers, this is a BEAST of a machine so I have co-opted it as my primary! coach789: I'm really desperate about finding a new laptop - each one of them I've tried gives me eye strain after 15-20 minutes. The problem is - I need to have a working computer for my job, but my old laptop is not good enough in terms of performance. Anybody have any suggestion for the new models came out in 2018/2019? Lauda89: I am fine with the dell series latitude E55XX. To be more precise i've used the E5550 and E5590. I sugest you to try this last one. 🙂 coach789: Lauda89 Didn't work for me. Plsnostrain: Seems to me that the e5590 uses intel 620 integrated, thats the same as in surface pro that I haved, and that caused eyestrain for me. Currently there are no laptops from 2018/2019 that works without causing eyestrain. If im wrong please tell me which is good cause I tried many that I had to return.... coach789: Plsnostrain I've also checked latest AMD powered laptops and gaming laptops with NVIDIA discrete chip only - same eye strain feeling after 15 minutes of usage. So in my case I wouldn't consider Intel dithering as an initial cause. Plsnostrain: Yeah, I know what you mean. I also bought the ryzen 2500 laptop and its just as bad. I have to use an ancient machine from 2009 to get relief. But its too slow to do any work unfortunately... My next step is to try an oled laptop when I can afford as I have lost a lot of money selling the other laptops(that didnt work) for less. I have used the last like 6 years trying to find an eyestrain free laptop.... Sunspark: Plsnostrain Don't bother with an OLED laptop. If you don't like phones, you won't like laptops either. Plsnostrain: Actually im using sony xperia xz3 oled which causes no eyestrain. Samsung s6 and s7 works perfect too. But Samsung s10e gives me strain.But I need a fast laptop for work..... degen: XPS 13 9380 is more painful than my Latitude E7450, which is already painful. Returning the XPS 13. alec: Hi guys. It's been quite a while since I've been back to this forum. To @degen, @Plsnostrain, and @coach789 , like you guys, I have been unable to find a modern laptop which does not cause a combination of the symptoms mentioned elsewhere (e.g. eyestrain, headache, spaciness, inability to concentrate, etc). It continues to be a source of frustration and discouragement - though I am very grateful to have found an older Lenovo laptop (x140e) which works well with MX LInux 18.3 and XFCE 4.12 (using gtk 2.0). This is an Amd laptop which is not particularly fast, but is okay. A year or two back, I purchased and returned many laptops and was unable to use any of them for more than 15 or 20 minutes before having symptoms. Continuing past that point could put me out of commission for hours or days. Anyway, if someone wants a laptop that works well and has a good keyboard, this x140e is recommended. Put in an SSD and a newer network card and it is usable for real work and easy on the eyes. Good luck and best wishes all. You are not alone with this strange malady. Gurm: I used ... 2018's matte, infinity-edge XPS13 without issue (it might have been the 2017 model TBH but it was in the "new machines" part of the Ignite Expo last fall, so I assume it was a 2018 model) for a few minutes, and if it were going to be a problem it would have been right away. Nothing is as comfy as my 2015 XPS13 with InfinityEdge, in 1080p Matte, running Windows 10 v1511. That's my ultimate comfort combo. The RAM is 8GB soldered on, and the chip is an i5, so it's getting a little long in the tooth. But it's literally the best thing I've ever used. degen: I'm using Dell Inspiron 7000 2-in-1 7391 with the FHD Touchscreen panel (Chi Mei CMN1384) for a couple of weeks now. Between trying the XPS 13 with the FHD matte panel, I tried the XPS 15 with the FHD matte panel. The XPS 15 was the most painful of them all, I think mostly because it was very bright even at its lowest setting (as well as using PWM below 26%). I like the Inspiron, I am keeping it. Better than the E7450. The panel, despite seeming reasonably comfortable so far, is actually really terrible from a PQ standpoint. Everything looks yellow and the colours are way off. I don't really care though as I don't do any work that requires accuracy. I would rank them: Inspiron 7391 FHD Touch > Latitude E7450 FHD > XPS 13 9380 FHD Matte non-Touch > XPS 15 7590 FHD Matte non-Touch Lauda89: I have a question guys.. how do you know if a notebook is using a true 8bit panel instead of 6bit + FRC? I always used https://www.displayspecifications.com/en but here you can find all the monitors and TVs but not the notebooks. Thank you Seagull: Lauda89 If its TN or Twisted Nematic its 6bit + frc. If its anything else it'll be 8-bit, IPS, VA, AVMA etc degen: Seagull These cheap IPS panels are mostly also 6 +FRC though? I noticed also now which is a huge pain, is that now that true 8 bit panels are becomming more common in IPS monitors for example (and have been common on VA for a while), now the manufacturers are adding FRC to get 8 + 2 bits... Anything I've seen now that advertises anything HDR is doing this.. which is a lot now. Seagull: degen My bad, you are right, I thought all IPS were 8bit but seems I'm wrong. Lauda89: degen Because i would try a true 8-bit laptop to avoid the FRC. To be honest I don't think FRC is a problem for me because my main monitor AW2518H is a 6 bit + FRC and before august it was fine. I don't know what happen in august but from that month i have a problem with my desktop and also with my notebook. Maybe some windows update, so i want to try to reinstall W10 1709 and see what happen. BTW maybe the FRC is not an issue on that Alienware thanks to the 240hz refresh rate? or 1ms pixel response? I am going crazy! Peter: Sunspark The think is that some amoled displays are just fine for some reason. Personally i can't stand all Samsung S series (migraines in seconds), however A70 / A50 / A40 are perfectly fine. Currently my main phone is an A70 and i can use it all day without any issue. SAH: I've been using a dell latitude 15 5580 (i5-6440HQ + GeForce 940MX) at work for the past two years. No problems at all, even without changing screen configuration nor using ditherig. (Nevertheless, when I updated W10 from build 1803 to 1809, I started to feel the eye pinching sensation and dizziness.) olgomar: I have had usable experiences recently with the Microsoft Surface Laptop 2 i5/256 model (Windows 10 Home with latest updates up to March 2020), and with the HP Chromebook HP14-DB0006AU with the non-touch FHD anti glare screen (ChromeOS from v79 - 81.0.4044.94 ) I was not negatively affected by either of these at any of their brightness levels, used the MS model for about 50 hrs over 10 days, and the chromebook currently using daily since late Jan 2020. laur5446: I just bought a new Asus Vivobook and it hurts my eyes quite a bit. I am currently using my 2011 Dell XPS and I only have mild symptoms in comparison. This thing is going on 10 years old and is pretty slow. What can I do to prolong its life and make it faster? Wipe it and re-install the software? If I buy another 10 year old laptop, it's just going to have the same issues and honestly I trust mine to be in better condition than anything I can find on eBay. Any suggestions? degen: laur5446 the question when buying a new windows laptop and you find it straining is.. Have you explored that newer windows builds cause you eyestrain? I think new windows laptop eyestrain is like 2/3 post 1511 Windows 10 strain and 1/3 intel graphics driver strain. Me and @si_edgey have had success with modern laptops by addressing both of these issues laur5446: degen I don't know. My 2011 laptop has an older version of Windows. This new laptop has Windows 10 and my work desk top is Windows 10... Both hurt. You've probably posted it somewhere but what laptop set up have you found works? si_edgey: laur5446 As @degen mentioned it's quite possible that you suffer from the same issue that many of us do. If you go to the start menu and type 'Winver' in there it'll say Version xxxx - any version after 1511 in my experience gives me eyestrain / headaches / migraines. The good news is it's fairly easy for a techy person to get hold of this version of Windows 10 and downgrade, and when you do that you can disable any display adapters in the Device Manager by right clicking them and selecting disable. If this works then you can be added to the growing number of people suffering this same issue, which we believe is a sensitivity to dithering. laur5446: si_edgey The version on my old laptop (6.1) bothers my eyes but mildly. The new laptop has version 1909. I only have a 7 more days before I can return this new laptop. Where do you download old versions of Windows? olgomar: I also have had problems with the modern Asus displays e.g. the Chromebook c434. However, recently I had a good experience with the Surface Laptop 2 and used it for many hours a day (5+) for about two weeks earlier this year. si_edgey: laur5446 Sorry i missed this - did you manage to get a copy of it downloaded? You can get every version of Windows here I believe: https://www.getmyos.com/windows-10-1511-home-pro-education-32-64-bit-free JTL: laur5446 I'd return it rather then risk my chances personally laur5446: @si_edgey Thanks! I will check this site out if I keep the laptop. @JTL I think I will probably end up keeping it. I restored my old Dell to factory settings and reinstalled Windows 7. Things won't work now--the USB ports won't function, the track pad isn't working properly, and f.lux won't work, either. It's not letting me download drivers, etc. I don't know what happened but I am about to toss this thing out the window. It still hurts my eyes to some degree so I guess I will just have to accept that I will be hard pressed to find anything that doesn't hurt my eyes. Peter: Has anyone tried any of these EyeSafe Dell laptops? programmer77: Peter Just got a Dell XPS 17 with EyeSafe. I should caution that I am not the best reviewer because my symptoms are more mild than most people on this forum. Still, I have tried many screens looking for the right one for me, and I think I found it. For my eyes, this panel is the best I've ever used (the only one that was close was the surprisingly cheap Acer Swift 1 14"). I have the non-touch panel option (better glare resistance) and Intel UHD graphics (NVIDIA is an option btw) and I updated it to the latest Intel drivers. Glare resistance is decent, but not too extreme so as to keep text sharp. Speaking of that, I find anything between 100% and 200% Windows scaling makes things blurry, but 200% works great. No PWM, although some may want to be able to go dimmer (at the bright end it is usable in direct sunlight and is bright enough to handle any add-on covers or computer glasses). I don't know much about temporal dithering (a lot of conflicting information on the Internet it seems) and not sure if this does it. There does seem to be some kind of dynamic technology (could even be in the panel as suggested by some advertising) because I notice if I have a dark screen and then pull up a bright window it might flicker and adjust color/brightness for about 10 seconds, but I seldom notice this. With a few other setting tweaks, this panel is amazingly easy on my eyes. I would suggest that someone with more severe issues give the new XPS 17 (or other Dell EyeSafe options) a try. Quad43: Thanks fort this programmer77. can you give us more info? what graphics here Intel or Nvidia card etc? programmer77: Quad43 NVIDIA was an option, but I picked the variant with only Intel UHD Graphics (630?), whatever comes with the 10th generation i5-10300H processor. DirectX version 12 (FL 12.1). I am on the latest driver, version 27.20.100.8280. One other thing I will note about this laptop is that applications look really good in dark mode. I've never liked dark mode on any other screen. Also running Debian 10 XFCE in VirtualBox and that looks great as well. degen: Note that with the 10th gen Intel laptops you can't get old WIndows 10 to work. I have XPS 7590 (9th gen Intel), and I am able to load WIndows 10 2015 LTSB and with that it is my best display. Note also that there is only one working Intel driver for UHD 630 which is on the 8th and 9th Gen that will work in RTM/1507 LTSB/1511, and it is included in the SamLab driverpack, 22.20.16.4836. Personally I am stuck on Windows 10 2015 LTSB and can't use any of the new Windows versions. I have also tried 10th gen XPS 13 (7390) and will not even load Windows installation environment [black screen or crazy stripey colors] for 1507 or 1511, the earliest it will load is 1607! (@Gurm @KM what is going on here? Obviously something fundamental changed between 1511 and 1607, which we already knew, but now it seems cemented on a hardware level). KM: degen I don't know. I remember I once had a Samsung Notebook that refused to boot Ubuntu (installation environment), but that's like 10 years ago. So maybe some notebooks expect some kind of driver support or they won't boot. AGI: degen I have XPS 7590 (9th gen Intel), and I am able to load WIndows 10 2015 LTSB and with that it is my best display. Hi, I am in the need of buying a laptop soon. Is the XPS 7590 the model with OLED 4K 15.6" display? If I understand the sense of your comments, the XPS 7590 offers you the best visual experience, but only upon installing a certain (old) version of the OS. Is that right? What happens otherwise? Moderate strain or completely unusable? Thanks! degen: AGI I have the Matte FHD display. The 4K OLED has strong PWM. The Matte FHD display is not using PWM at 26% brightness and above. It's not usable for me with newer versions of Windows 10. @si_edgey finds the XPS 15 9560 to be usable with Windows 10 build 2004 and old Intel drivers. AGI: degen I wish I could find a seller that allows for returns within 15 days as when I lived in Europe. I am freaking out at the thought of 2 years ago when I bought 4-5 phones within a few months and resold all of them half price after a few days from the purchase :-( The trial and error nightmare is back. Peter: programmer77 That is great. I think the latest XPSs in the office are with EyeSafe technology. If this is the case i may be able to test one. JTL: AGI Doesn't EU have greater consumer protection laws, or are you not in EU? AGI: JTL In Asia currently... JTL: AGI Ah yeah, that might be harder 🙁 Quad43: Peter would really like to hear your experience here Quad43: programmer77 thanks. Did you get FHD or UHD display? ThaCMaster: I got the Dell XPS 15 9500. It had no PWM on notebook check and wasn't glossy so it's easier on the eyes. So far it's been excellent and the easiest thing I've found on my eyes. I've tried everything from gaming laptops, business laptops, to even art laptops and this has been the best I've found since I started having the bad headaches over 2 years ago. I will note that my eyes "feel" it (something I'm sure eye sensitive people understand) but it has not caused me a headache at all just from using it. I definitely notice when I'm using it though. On top of that it's an excellent laptop. Great battery, amazing speakers (the best I've ever had), the brightest screen I've ever had, I can keep mine on the lowest all day which helps battery life and it has no PWM which is great. It is even good for gaming. This is an all around wonderful laptop and I highly recommend it for those having eye strain issues. Get it from Dell directly for the best deal as they threw in a bunch of things for me plus free expedited shipping. Good luck guys! Also earlier this month they had a summit earlier this month on October 15th. Dell, HP, Lenovo, and Acer with others are releasing more eyesafe products which is great! People are listening little by little (Covid has had more eye strain as well as people are indoors more). Keep your heads up guys it is getting better. https://www.newsbreak.com/amp/samsung-daily/n/0X5xvISi Also here are the current eyesafe items. https://eyesafe.com/products/ AGI: Yesterday I went to a take a look at a couple of laptops as I need to buy a new one soon. I spent less than 30 minutes in the shop and today, nearly 20 hours later, I still have sticky eyes, strong eyelid twitching and annoying neck tension which I did not have prior to visiting the shop. The two devices I played with are Iiyama, a brand which may not be known everywhere. Both displays are LCD, Full HD (1920×1080 pixels). One device mounts a Nvidia card, as it is a gaming laptop, and the other an Intel UHD graphics (I could not get which model). Both laptops are on Windows 10. I am quite demoralized, as I thought the combination LCD and Full HD would be a good solution, and I can use Windows 10 on desktop PCs. There is a chance that only one of the two devices screwed my eyes (I am tentatively pointing the finger to graphic cards), but I can't really tell which. Perhaps I should go back and play around with only one laptop at a time. JTL: AGI Iiyama, a brand which may not be known everywhere Name rings a bell (to me). Don't know much else AGI I am quite demoralized, as I thought the combination LCD and Full HD would be a good solution Both don't mean much without context of the other attributes about the screen. AGI: JTL Thanks. What else should I look at hardware-wise? My eyes and neck are still sore after 24 hours. I feel desperate thinking about the new job and the new PC uncertainty. JTL: AGI I don't have any easy answers for you I'm afraid. Seagull: AGI LCD inversion gets me on laptops. http://www.techmind.org/lcd/ Laptops tend to use the crappier, but power saving, inversion modes. I've not been able to use one for a long time, I just plug external monitors into my work laptop. Fortunately no one has asked me to travel, yet, otherwise I will have to take my 22" monitors with me! AGI: Seagull Interesting observation! I have been fully on laptops for 10 years (horrible for neck and posture!): a private laptop on Windows XP since 2007; a Dell Latitude on Windows 7 between 2016 and 2018 (okay only using non-native resolution), and a MacBook Air Early 2014 since 2018 (the last two being business laptops). To confuse me more, in the last two years I have used without major issues a variety of shared PCs on Windows 7 and 10, but I am knocked down any time I look at a new laptop in a shop. It is like with smartphones. My neck and eyes send messages within minutes. I wonder whether I could insist and get use. I am not a hardware expert. Is this issue of the inversion mode present in any laptop, including very expensive ones? Is it a problem only for LCD screens? What about LED screens? Thanks! AGI: JTL No worries. Thanks anyhow. I may be soon on cannabis oil. I hope it will lift my mood :-) Seagull: AGI Inversion is part of any LCD screen (LED = LCD), old or new. Its the only explanation for why I can't use any laptops at the moment. AGI: Seagull Thanks! I thought the old LCD displays were different from the LED back-lit ones of nowadays? Could you use laptops before? Are the new ones worse than the old in your eyes? On a different note, has any solid conclusion been drawn with regard to gaming computers? Back in 2013-14 or around that, I was finding MacBook Retina and Alienware laptops stunning. They felt super-comfortable at native resolution. Those days I could not use any laptop without strain at native resolution. Now, any gaming computer or Mac pierce my eyes. I have no clue whether I should go for a high profile model or spend the minimum possible, knowing that probably I will have to resell for half price within a week. Seagull: AGI Just to clarify, and you may already know this: when a screen its marketed as an LED screen, what it really means is that its an LED backlit LCD screen. Older LCD screens (pre 2010ish) would have been CCFL backlit. They all use inversion, which means even if you get a 'flicker free' LCD screen, or something that does not dither, there will always some level of flicker from LCD inversion. Regarding my tolerance of laptops, its definitely me that's changed. I still have the laptop I used to be able to use, but can no longer. I stopped eating red meat / dairy a few years ago. Largely cured my bowel disease, but made my screen tolerance much worse - the reason why is complicated! I'd suggest you look up what types of LCD your past laptops used. The older screens you used without issue may have all been of the TN type. Good modern laptops are almost exclusively IPS now. I can't say what difference there is between TN and IPS, other than that the later always gives me migraines, where the former is sometimes OK for me. AGI: Seagull Thanks a lot. It is clearer now. The laptop I was referring to is a ThinkPad T60 from 2007. I googled and I think it has an IPS panel. I will read more about the differences between TN and IPS. However, I fear that which of the two is best is, as always, very subjective, isn't it? ThaCMaster: Good news and bad news time. So the Dell laptop was an EXCELLENT machine. Great battery ,great screen, great speakers, and can game some as well. It did put some pressure on my eyes and it was very light for the most part at first. Last week I had two days where I had some pain from my eyes. I didn't have that before so I'm guessing it had to be from the laptop. Sometimes less pain can hurt in a different way if you keep using the machine. This is definitely the most tolerant laptop I've had this year and so far. It lasted one day in my left eye and one day in my right eye. I had only one more week to use it and I didn't want to chance having worse issues down the line on a $2k investment so I returned it. I'm trying an Acer Swift now. Nice and cheap with good battery life and well rounded so I'll see how it works tomorrow. The good news is that I've been using Omega 3 which is great for the eyes (as my doctor told me as well). I used to use it a long time ago before my fish allergies. This is a vegan version and I've noticed I've had significantly less pain in my eyes. In fact I've tried gaming for a few hours and don't have the pain I normally have! If it's not a placebo and I feel better and better due to my excess dryness being resolved I wonder if I can go back to using what I want? If so it will definitely open a lot of options to me because I had a gaming laptop that had 8-10 hours of battery before earlier this year. Long story short, try some omega 3 if you haven't. I also have this eye massager as well. My doctor told me that dry eyes are common with our screen usage and that I had 50% of the moisture in my eyes that I should. So the eye heated massager I received significantly helped relieve eye strain and headaches while letting me sleep quickly. Huge quality of life improvement and highly recommended. The heat and massaging relaxes your eyes and produces moisture. https://www.amazon.com/RENPHO-Updated-Compression-Bluetooth-Rechargeable/dp/B088BJ8B1G/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=3FH5QG1PPTWN4&dchild=1&keywords=renpho+eye+massager&qid=1604504068&sprefix=renpho+eye+%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFaUFUwRFBJNUJYRTQmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA4OTU5NzMyN0FFQjdCSzBXNjU3JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NzQ1NDAxVUdEVjAwOU0wU1JXJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== AGI: Today I tested a Microsoft Surface Latop 3 13.5" and it did not feel too bad. At least I was not knocked down as a couple of weeks ago when I checked on iiyama laptops. I also played a bit with a Dynabook laptop, which has a 13.3" FHD IGZO screen. I did not get if Dynabook is a daughter company of Toshiba or a fully independent brand. The colors looked very vivid and the experience was better than with any other laptop on the market I tried recently, except the above mentioned Surface. Now that I remember, last year I had considered buying a smartphone with IGZO display because it did not drive me insane within minutes, but then I went for something cheaper. Has anyone tried IGZO displays? AGI: AGI I spoke too early :-( It is not as bad as two weeks ago with iiyama, but I developed symptoms. More neck than eyes, a classic. I will test the Surface Laptop 3 again without looking at anything else before and after. This is very subtle, because I could not feel pain on the spot. Peter: The eyesafe tech seems promising. I will be getting an eyesafe dell laptop within the next 6 months on the next laptop replacement in the company i work for. There is a colleague of mine that has one but i have not met him due to the covid lock-down. While he does not have the same sensitivity i have, he often complains of eye strain due to modern displays being too intense. With the Dell eyesafe screen he told me the display seems very comfortable. Quad43: What does everyone think about UHD vs FHD? JTL: Quad43 Just screen resolutions, nothing more AGI: AGI I will test the Surface Laptop 3 again without looking at anything else before and after. I went for a second and a third round, but, since I urgently need to buy a laptop, I made again the mistake of looking at two devices at a time. The first time I was lucky. I tested the Surface Laptop 3 13.5" and the Surface Book 2 13.5". I spent about 20-30 min at the shop, way longer than it typically requires to give me eyestrain. I did not get almost any symptom. The next time, in a different shop I found the Surface Laptop 15" together with the 13.5" model and I looked at both, thinking I would not mind a larger screen. I spent two horrible days afterwards. Swimming, stretching, nothing helped out to recover my well being. I checked and the 15" model mounts different hardware, especially a different graphics card, to the 13.5" device. That would be my explanation, but I am not sure of anything at this point. In the end, I did not buy anything. vince: The Surface Laptops have an issue with palm rejection with the trackpad. While you're typing, the cursor will jump somewhere else. I eventually learned to live with it, as I don't think there is a fix. Even turning down the trackpad sensitivity didn't solve the problem. Also, now the laptop won't print unless I reboot it. Just typical Windows annoyances that you never see on a Macbook. I use the laptop exclusively with an external monitor, as I can't comfortably use the laptop's screen. Seefree: Coming from a surface pro 4 m3 version that just died a few weeks back I purchased a surface book 3 base model no nvidia card and MacBook Air M1. Two things I wanted in a laptop was fanless and no PWM. Don’t know yet about the MacBook Air having no PWM most likely will. But the surface books are good according to notebook check. Using the surface book 3 for about a week now ive noticed my eyes feeling similar to looking at an iPhone 7. My eyes feel dry, blurry and have to blink a lot after use. I have also noticed it has this reddish ghosting when night mode is on and scrolling and using certain applications, which my surface pro 4 apparently did not have. It also seems blurrier when scrolling than my surface pro 4. I had to download intel control app from Microsoft store because it was constantly doing adaptive constant adjustment shifting which happens with my surface pro after every update until I make the reg tweak. Hoping to try ditherig on this machine and see if that helps. But so far would rate it a 3/5. My surface pro 4 was a 4/5. Could use it up to 5 hrs without affecting my eyes or brain. Waiting for my MacBook Air M1 to deliver and will update but don’t have high hopes for it. ThaCMaster: I found a solution to my problems for my laptop woes at long last! It took a bit of a process but I weeded it out. I heard a lot of good things about the Razer Blade Pro. I decided a 17" would be good as I wouldn't have to scale the font. I had heard the screen was overwhelmingly good on the eyes and they didn't have any flicker issues. At least kind of. I bought a 2060 one first and that one came with a different display than was on the reviews (normally it has an LG display but I ended up with the cheap Chinese BOE display that flickered). Even then it was the easiest display on my eyes up to that point. If I turned the brightness up it didn't bother me at all, but it did on lower brightness levels to a mild amount. I returned it and got the 2070 RTX Razer Blade PRO here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B087M5LXYW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 It always comes with a high quality 300hz refresh rate screen which makes it smoother and easier on the eyes. It has a great form and good specs. It is a bit pricier than I wanted to initially spend but it was worth it for the comfort and no headaches. It apparently always comes with the better display as there is no cheap Chinese version of this display. This means I didn't have to play the screen lottery with it. This is the easiest one I've had on my eyes yet. A good bit more than even the Dell XPS 15 9500. I even tested video games on it (the most strenuous activity for me along with digital art) and it caused me very very very mild pressure. This one is a winner in my book and highly recommended. I would also recommend getting a extended warranty on such a pricey laptop and Razer can be... meh in terms of service based on what I heard. That said I called them to ask them about something this past weekend and they helped me quite a bit. Bottom line If you are having issues with a lot of laptops, this one will likely be your best bet. It is a bit pricey but if you're willing to pay a premium for comfort give it a shot. The good news is that you can you use it for basically any task. It has a great screen, awesome speakers (I can hear them all over my place) and is a quality device! Quad43: ThaCMaster Thanks for this, do you know if Razer makes 32gb ram laptops? if so will try Quad43: ThaCMaster Razer Blade Pro up and running, using the RTX 2080 with the same Discrete mode so it only uses NVIDIA and disables gsync. Will also do the regedit hack to turn off any potential dithering. Quad43: Very similar configuration to the Razer - has anyone tried https://rog.asus.com/uk/laptops/rog-zephyrus/rog-zephyrus-s17-series/ ? Asus Rog series ThaCMaster: I'm glad you found something that fits your criteria. I tried the Rog last year, but it hurt my eyes. That said I have a HUGE announcement and a quality of life increase that worked for me and I'm now able to use more and more devices as well as eat foods I couldn’t previously. I don’t know if it will work for everyone, but it is definitely working for me. Long and detailed post below on my progress and what has allowed me to use more devices again without eye strain. First, a little background. I have had issues with food sensitivity for many years (since around 2012-2013) or so. At that time, I started getting bad joint pain and inflammation from eating certain foods. Over it got so bad that I couldn’t even bend over to pick up things and even walking hurt. I had to eventually cut out sugar, corn, dairy, and wheat. From there I even had to cut out rice and a huge number of foods until I was just eating eggs, turkey, and chicken. It got to the point that when I was eating foods about 3-4 years back, I would get nasty headaches more and more. I did have a few foods removed from my diet but then it got worse. This was beyond what was giving me joint pain. I had no idea what was causing it but I did try probiotics and other things like bone broth, but I still got headaches (I had a histamine intolerance as well and probiotics tend to have a lot of it as they are fermented). Eventually, one day in 2018 around July or so I started getting bad eye strain when playing a game on my phone, the LG G6. I had a Samsung Galaxy 4 for many years but had to swap it because I couldn’t use it to collect payments for my business as the OS was too outdated. Unfortunately, this wasn’t a one-time thing and like many of you my eyes just hurt more and more from more things. It got to the point where something wouldn’t hurt (like my old laptop) and then eventually start to hurt. It felt like I was just delaying the inevitable no matter what I had. I had a feeling that my headaches with my diet and with the screens were linked as I’ve always been a firm believer in fixing myself from the inside first. There have been many links with gut health and inflammation and overall health, and I wanted my life back. I often tried supplements, but I would get headaches from using them over time too. When I went to the doctor at the end of last year, I saw something that I could take for my gut health called Ion Gut Health/Restore Gut Health (both are the same) that was supposed to help repair your stomach and immune system. I asked my doctor about it and he said it was essentially to heal the damage to your stomach by introducing certain minerals into it slowly while healing the lining in your gut. I thought it was interesting, so I gave it a try. Nothing ventured nothing gained. This was a small office so I ordered it from Amazon so I could return it if I had a bad reaction to it. I’ve been using it right at a month now and I can say this works wonders for me. The first 10 days or so I had to take less. The recommended amount is 1 teaspoon 30 minutes before eating 3 times a day. I started at ½. I tried 1 teaspoon and had some light headaches and my stomach had to adapt. I then went from ¼ up to 1 teaspoon a day. I added other foods in at the end of the first week. I started with oatmeal, and then avocados and grapes. Foods that I couldn’t eat for years I was now able to eat again which gave me more flexibility. What was also noticeable was my screen usage. When I had the Razer, I was able to game to about 30 minutes before my eyes got slightly irritated. After using this I noticed I could play multiple hours with no eye strain. From there it went to 5 hours and eventually I could play as long as I wanted with certain games (some games are harsher on my eyes than others) a few weeks in. About two weeks ago I wanted to give my older Eluktronics laptop another go because I was curious. My Razer laptop had until the 31st to return and while it was good, I always loved my old laptop and I absolutely liked the keyboard on it much better. So, I took it out and tried it. I had wiped everything, so I had to start on that god-forsaken blue screen but I as able to tolerate it much better. My eyes were somewhat irritated by it still but not to instant day ending headaches like before. I had to turn the night light up to about 65-70 but it was a big improvement! Over the past two weeks I have adjusted to my laptop more and more and I’ve eaten more foods. I also returned my Sony TV monitor and I’m using my old 55-inch TV that I had before that was irritating on the eyes. Right now my diet is increasing and I have now eaten brown rice, peanut butter, grapes, salad, avocados, tortilla chips, plain fries, and turkey bacon. Before I could only eat eggs, turkey, and chicken and anything else would give me a headache. I'm eating basically everything although new foods make my body adapt a bit. I also read on the site I could go up to 3 tablespoons a day which would be a triple dosage. I don't think I'll take that much but I will do 1.5x and see how that works. I don’t want to burn through my supply too fast as they are pretty pricey $70 for a large bottle (32 oz is a 6-month supply) and overtaking something can be just as bad as not taking it at all. I'm also still lowering the "night light" on my laptop and when I first started using it I had it at like 65-70 or so and now I'm at about 40 and I lower it by 1-2 each day. I did have some hiccups where I had my blue light lamp glare in my face or when I turned off my graphics card and my “night light” went off. Now it just irritates me some instead of being an instant day ender knockout headache like before. I also dropped my desktop to 10 (it’s a BenQ at that was at 25%) on the nightlight and my eyes are fine. Who knows maybe I can even use it without glasses down the line? I have been able to take my glasses off around my phone for short periods (in the bed and checking a text or shaving and listening to the radio). If I could do that with no filters, then I know I'll have come a super long way. I will keep you guys updated but for me this has been a huge revelation. The product is below for anyone interested. Feel free to read the reviews on it. That’s what I did before I bought it.: https://www.amazon.com/ION-Digestive-Strengthens-Alleviates-Sensitivity/dp/B07YMNYX5Y/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=V17Z4NH4KS6&dchild=1&keywords=ion+gut+health&qid=1611823206&sprefix=ion+gut%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFSNVNVSkwwS0hJSEgmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA0MTAwNzEyV00yTTBKTjU2WjBMJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA2NDc4OTYyM09IU1g4UjlVNEFUJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== or this (they are the same). https://www.amazon.com/RESTORE-Terrahydrite-Substances-Complexes-Environmental/dp/B01DVACA1C/ref=sr_1_7?crid=V17Z4NH4KS6&dchild=1&keywords=ion+gut+health&qid=1611823206&sprefix=ion+gut%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-7 Best of luck with your journey guys! Quad43: ThaCMaster Really really interesting. Thank you for sharing. Keep us informed with how it goes. Gut health is connected to everything! tfouto: ThaCMaster Great story. How Kong are you planning taking those pills? Seagull: ThaCMaster That product has red flags all over it, despite it working. One of the reviews mentions its made with coal. That might be acting like activated charcoal, which at a guess could have this effect, activated charcoal is certainly good for digestion problems, though not without harm. I would recommend you try activated charcoal, or probiotics, or other things where you actually know what's in the product rather than gamble with the mystery juice. ThaCMaster: Quad43 I've had good results with it so far, as long as you take your time with it the product works fine for the vast majority of people. I've been slowly reducing my yellow light too. tfouto It's a liquid you take that tastes like water. I do 1 teaspoon 3 times a day. It will be ongoing as I'm into maximizing my health and I'm seeing great results from it. Being able to eat a normal diet again without joint pain, headaches, and intolerances has been life changing on top of the benefits. Seagull I read the reviews and spoke to someone else about them as well as well as my doctor in the office where I saw them. The results have been overwhelmingly positive for the vast majority of people in general. I've tried many products and probiotics over the years. I've even done home made probiotics (sauerkraut and kombucha). I also tried Greek yogurt. I either got joint pain or headaches from them. I even had histamine free probiotic pills and those gave me headaches and hurt my joints. My doctor was saying this heals your gut so that you can tolerate probiotics a lot better. I've had Greek yogurt now with no problems as well as many other foods. I'm increasing my diet and my eyes hurt less and less every day. I have been doing this since right after Christmas (on the 28th) The bottom line is you'll always have negative reviews on any and every product. Even on probiotics. The issue I had with probiotics is that I have a histamine intolerance and probiotics are high in histamine because they are fermented foods. I tried them for years and they just ended up giving me headaches and other than making me less hungry when I was on them didn't help my problem. My body adjusted to this in 10 days and I've had much better results like most people. I'm a big skeptic who has a lot of food sensitivities and allergies. The best thing to do is to do as much research as possible before trying something (which I do). At the end of the day to know for sure you will have to try it and see if it works for you and if it doesn't, return it. That's why I bought it online first and not at my local office because you couldn't return it to them. It also cost more (which I didn't mind supporting local business, but it was the return policy) No matter what product exists there are always people who have bad reactions to it, myself included. I wouldn't recommend anybody dive right in. Just take it in small steps and see if it helps and it doesn't, send it back. I started with small doses and increased them. The ingredients are on the product. Gut health is a new territory that is still being heavily explored. Some doctors often disagree with others on many things with the body. I have often found that my own care and eating healthy worked much better than what many doctors tried to suggest over the years, which was taking as many pills as possible. Weigh out different products and see what works. I wouldn't suggest this as a miracle pill for everyone but it did work for me and many others so it is worth a look. In my case I think it had to do with my stomach and overall inflammation. I hope that helps. Thanks! Seagull: ThaCMaster I don't doubt that it works, just be careful: Coal can be carcinogenic; Terrahydrite is a made up name and doesn't tell you what's actually in it; it mentions probiotics but never says which ones. I strongly suspect you'd get the same results with a high quality activated charcoal and one of the more psychoactive probiotics like lactobacillus rhamnosus or Bifidobacterium longum BB536. Its also worth keeping in mind that just because it helps, doesn't mean its not harmful. ThaCMaster: From the research I've done and read it says that coal that is inhaled is carcinogenic. I haven't heard about activated charcoal being carcinogenic but I have heard some people have issues with it. There are doctors on both sides of the issue from what I've seen. The difference with this product and the probiotics is that it is designed to help your body build it's own defenses and restore itself versus simply introducing something new in your body. That said I agree that many things can harm you. I've tried supplements and even those can be harmful and damage your body if you take them too often as you can throw your other vitamins and minerals out of whack in your system. I'm more than happy to look into what you mentioned or any other reasonable suggestions that people might have though. Keep in mind that I have a bad histamine intolerance and that trying probiotics before gave me bad side effects. That said I'm introducing them into my body slowly now as I can actually start eating different foods again. Some of the ones you mentioned have low reviews with people having bad side effects due to other additives in them too so I would suggest anybody who is putting something into their body to look into it and start slowly. Thanks for the feedback! Edit: This is something I found on the coal issue. Q: Is this product coal based? A: Humic substances/ lignite and coal are related in that they both contain carbon. Humic substances/ lignite begins as an accumulation of partially decayed plant material, or peat. Burial by other sediments causes compaction. Thus, humic substances/ lignite is a complex of trace minerals and carbon family molecules from ancient composted soil, naturally rich in a variety of humic substances. If geological events cover the material with layers of rock, then lignite would eventually form coal. Brown coal is further down the scale of compression and metamorphosis than our source, and this is an important difference between various materials in the humate category. The gradient from peat moss to humus, to leonardite, to lignite, to coal contains a spectrum of compounds, and the metamorphosis of carbon materials from peat soils to humic substances to fossilized soil to lignite to coal takes millions of years. The pressures and extended time that form coal create unique chemical reactions that create aromatics, some of which are carcinogenic.1 The source, the location in geological strata, the possible exposure to Mesozoic volcanic ash, and countless other variables determine the quality and safety of the source. We have concluded that the best way to test the efficacy and safety of a product is regular cell culture studies on the product in question, in this case, ION*Gut Health.  We take the safety of our product very seriously and mass spectroscopy shows our US source of humic substances/lignite to be a very pure source. Our Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP) Team does regular testing for bacterial contamination, heavy metals, and overall product composition and strength. In compliance with California’s Prop 65 legislation, we test ION*Gut Health for levels of mercury, lead, arsenic, and cadmium. In addition, we continue to exceed all industry standards in the dietary supplement field with our own multi-specialty basic science laboratories onsite. Beyond our scientific studies, ION*Gut's efficacy can be seen in its widespread use since its introduction in 2012 as RESTORE(TM). Today, over 1,500 global healthcare practitioners and many retail stores recommend it to their patients and customers. ThaCMaster: Hi there guys. Hope you guys are all doing well. I was just giving you an update on my eyes with the stuff I have been taking for my stomach. The Ion Gut Health which is designed to heal your stomach and gut issues. As mentioned before I had issues with my stomach and food for many years to the point where I had many headaches (3 or more a week that lasted all day) and I couldn't eat anything but eggs, turkey, and chicken. I have had some large improvements so I'm listing them just as a record and to show my progress in case anybody is interested. I've also drastically lowered my "blue light filter" on my computers. My desktop is now at 0 (normal light). I have a BenQ monitor with Eye care. I changed it from reading mode to office and later I will try multimedia. Before it was at around 27 or so. My laptop is currently at 14 (light yellow filter). When I first started using it, I had it at 65-70! This is a very large improvement and I feel I will be at zero before the end of the month. I tend to go down 1 a day, occasionally two. Sometimes I won't lower it at all if my eyes hurt from it that day (about once or sometimes twice in a week). It's crazy how going down 1 too many can really make your eyes feel different but it does. As of now I'm eating and can eat: Chicken (far less now. I cook it about once every two weeks instead of two days because I'm eating less and mixing foods.) Turkey (same with chicken) Eggs Turkey bacon (was giving me headaches at first) Turkey dogs (same as turkey bacon) Avocados (and guac obviously) Tortilla chips Carrots Almond milk (and soon almond butter) Peanut butter Fries (and potatoes) Broccoli Green Beans Brown Rice Salad Grapes Olive Oil Lemon and Lime water flavoring Red meat (just trying for now, the verdict is out) The only thing I don't really like is wheat and I've had issues with it for years and don't really need it. This is a huge help for me. I still strongly recommend it and I will keep taking it as it is helping me get my life back. Thanks and I hope you are staying healthy and safe. 🙂 Quad43: ThaCMaster Really interesting, thanks for sharing. I've also had success improving digestion and doing neti pot to relieve sinuses. Not perfect though. ThaCMaster: What have you used for your digestive improvements? I think I just had inflammatory issues due to issues with my gut. I think this just caused me to have more sensitivities overall. I haven't heard of the neti pot. I did use a humidifier a lot in the winter when I used a small heater though as it dried me out badly. I hope you keep improving. Quad43: Food allergy test and eliminating those mostly. Also Triphala ThaCMaster: Awesome. I just came from the doctor today and got my epi pen. I might try eating fish again. He told me to start with Tilapia as it's the most mild. What particular things were hurting your eyes before? Was your situation severe? Quad43: ThaCMaster almost nothing eyes. Almost everything head. Above my eyes or top of my forehead. Still have issue with some screens like iPhone and most monitors etc ThaCMaster: That's what I found was an issue. I got more and more headaches from more and more things. Foods, stuff I washed my hair with, screens, etc. Good to see you're improving in your condition. I am on 5 with my laptop in terms of the blue screen filter. I imagine I will be at 0 by the end of next week! Quad43: Great to hear! Has anyone else tried this supplement and had positive results? ThaCMaster: Do you mean what I'm using or the stuff you had mentioned? I was just clarifying. Thanks. As of this morning I'm now on 0 in terms of my yellow filter for my laptop. On my desktop I can use all sites again, have had yellow filter off for about a month, and I'm able to play pretty much any game (I don't game much but it was the most strenuous thing so it's a stress test). Only Killer Instinct 2013 causes mild irritation. That game has been hard on my eyes since around late 2018, even with glasses. It isn't an instant headache day ender, but I don't mess with it much yet. Old school shooters like Doom and Duke 3d were the other culprits but I can handle them now (on my desktop). My laptop is a bit behind the curve as it's a little stronger on the eyes for gaming the more intense games but I'll try the simpler ones and report back! This has been a spectacular result for me and a life changer. Best regards. Quad43: ThaCMaster Thanks - really amazing results. Wondering if there's anyone else who has tested this supplement so we can spot a trend? ThaCMaster: There are plenty reviews on it helping people with headaches due to issues they were having (amongst other ailments they had). This is what encouraged me to try it. I haven't seen it on computer forums much, although I have seen people say their headaches got worse as their stomach, diet, and inflammatory response changed. The stomach is just so complex and we are learning a lot about it. I will definitely recommend it here and to anyone I come across. They are pricey so you can buy a small amount to try if you like. I think for the huge benefits it's well worth the cost as it's changed my life around. It feels nice not having headaches anymore. I can't even remember the last time I had one. I have had some very light eye strain while I was testing new things but it's no longer a day ender like it used to be. Quad43: Quad43 this one seems really interesting. has benefits on the Eyes and gut together Also I've been using blue light glasses by Ocushield.... and despite me at first being sceptical, they massively help. Any thougths as to why? ThaCMaster: The blue light glasses help keep filter the blue light so they have a much lesser effect. The newer ones have gotten better so the yellow effect is much less noticeable. Which one did you mean seems interesting? Just trying to clarify for the eye and gut stuff. Thanks. CampFirefly: Try Zeiss blue-blocking lenses. They are amazing! Although the lenses have a sight bright blue sheen, everything is viewed clearly, without a color tint. The lenses don't help with my LED problem, but they do keep my brain more relaxed when I need to spend a lot of time in front of screens. They cost $131 installed in my frames. If needed, you can have them created with your eye prescription, too. Also, I found the company's history to be very cool 🙂 ThaCMaster: Hi guys. Just an update. Hope you've all been well! I have a BenQ eye care monitor. For those of you who are familiar with it, it has 4 screen settings for your eyes. Reading Mode (easiest on eyes). Office Mode (second easiest on eyes). Web Surfing Mode (next to hardest on eyes). Multimedia Mode (hardest on eyes). When I had it at 0 before, I had it on reading mode. So I tried the other modes and initially my eyes couldn't take it well at 0. I ended up going back to about 25 or so on the next level and working up. It seemed like once I could adjust I could bring it from about 25 to 10 and then go below 10 (which is the hardest part). I actually got through Web Surfing Mode pretty quickly. I'm on multimedia mode which is the hardest. I am hovering just around the 10 level. If I can make it work on 0 with this it will be a huge improvement. I can use all of my other devices, however extensive reading on my tablet can be a bit irritating. I'm also getting a Samsung Galaxy Tab S7. It's on the way to me. Samsung normally has horrible devices on the eyes but the non plus version of the Galaxy Tab S7 uses LCD and from what I've read is far easier on the eyes. I will report back when I have it. If it's true that's a huge step up. Glad more companies are using screens that are more eye friendly. The Samsung Galaxy Tab S7 (+ version) has AMOLED with bad screen flicker so don't get that one. It does have DC dimming but it's still harder on the eyes. It is very large but may be too large for many. Also I tried the rebranded "Restore Gut Health". It's the same formula as ION but I decided to try it. It actually felt more potent and I initially reduced my dosage to adjust. Could just be a coincidence with that particular bottle but it is interesting to note as I've never had it happen with my other bottles. Hope you guys have a great holiday weekend planned. Best regards! Quad43: Thanks great update. Which model did you use of Benq? ThaCMaster: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072XCZSSW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 This is what I have. Not as great for gaming or something but the colors are nice. You have different eye settings and it's good for the price. 🙂 Alyosha2001: Anyone tried HP Zbook 15 G6? The screen has no pwm, but I get dry eyes from using it after some time ThaCMaster: Alyosha2001 I had the HP Zbook X2 G4. Great device for art and had no PWM but was no good after my eyes got more irritated. I have been improving. I tried a Samsung Galaxy Tab 7 as it is supposed to be much better on the eyes but it still irritated me. I have a new laptop I'm using and I will report on it later! Hope you guys have a great holiday planned! Peter: (1) It was my turn to replace my old laptop at work so on Friday i got the Dell XPS 9310 2in1 Core i7 /16 GB/512 GB/Iris Xe Graphics with Eyesafe technology. Connected to my trusty ASUS CCFL display via Dell's docking station, it seems ok. I used this configuration for 3-4 hours at work. I will know for sure within next week. I had to use it without connecting it to an external display for 3 hours at a client's site. After the first 20 mins of looking directly at the laptop's monitor i felt my eyes a bit heavy with a light headache. I experimented with Dell's profile options (movie, animation etc.) and night light but none of these made any real difference. What helped enough to get through the meeting were my Crizal glasses, i figured i could give them a try. I think they helped me in not having a nasty headache during my weekend. It seems that this eyesafe technology is not really helping me. Next week i will be able to conclude if this one is usable or not. (2) Also regarding to Linux, a client of ours used to operate the office laptops with Mint 19.1 (they operate their accounting software on linux). Recently they upgraded all their desktops to Linux Mint 20.3. Now i get a very strong headache in 5 mins of use in the same machine as before (CCFL display). I assume there are developers/IT people in this forum (i am an accountant), do you think it is possible to ask the Mint development team what changed? If we could have this information, wouldn't this shed some light as what software changes cause the discomfort? Mint 19.1 was perfect, with the combination of a ccfl display it was perhaps the most comfortable setup i have ever used. karthi3219: Peter Thanks for suggesting Mint 19.1. Its good with my eyes too. Using it for 3 days no eye strain as such. My setup: Old 2011 Samsung NP350 laptop, Benq 2470 external LED monitor, Mint 19.1. Zazu: ThaCMaster I cannot game at all. Even on monitors and systems that are fine. I think my eyes struggle with the depth and perspective, esp. with shooters. Lauda89: I have been using a Dell Latitude E5550 for several years without any problems (with W10 1809 and GPU drivers installed) and a few months ago I received the new Dell Latitude E7420 business notebook which unfortunately I cannot use. Usual symptoms, eye ache, headache and brain fog. I tried connecting it to my Alienware AW2518HF external monitor via HDMI and the situation improved a little but not enough. So I bought a 17 "inch portable external monitor and connected via USB-C! I can use it without problems.. The monitor is this one: https://www.uperfectmonitor.com/collections/portable-monitors/products/17-3-in-1080p-fhd-portable-monitor Was it just luck or does the USB-C connection render the image differently than HDMI? P.S. Last W11 build and last intel GPU driver. ryans: Lauda89 Just a guess, but the Alienware AW2518HF is 6 bits + FRC whereas it looks like the UPERFECT monitor you linked seems to be 8 bit. What if you tried a mini HDMI to HDMI cable on that UPERFECT monitor? That would tell us if it's the USB-C connection vs. the panel itself. I'd love to hear others inputs. Glad you found something usable 🙂! These success stories (even if workarounds) give us so much hope! Clokwork: I'm highly interested in that monitor! Quad43: Same for the Asus portable zenscreen. Zero strain. ryans: Quad43 With USB-C? Quad43: ryans yep Clokwork: Quite a price difference between the two… ensete: Lauda89 Was it just luck or does the USB-C connection render the image differently than HDMI? It shouldn't matter. Both are digital signals: 1's and 0's. The cable it travels on won't make any difference to the electrons. The monitor may have a different video chip (or different functions on the same video chips) that processes the signals differently, that would explain the difference between the two ryans: @Lauda89 How are you doing with that external panel? Still working well? SAH: Quad43 Can you give me the name of the model you used ? Is it the MB16AC ? ryans: Lauda89 Hi @Lauda89, Are you still using the external monitor with success? Ever figured out why the laptop display wasn't visually good for you, or, why USB-C worked good for you whereas HDMI did not? Quad43: SAH That's the one SAH: Quad43 Thanks ! ensete: I use a Dell Latitude 3440 with the "upgraded" matte screen (it was an option when I bo ught it) with absolutely zero issues. With 8GB of RAM it runs Windows 7 just fine Lauda89: ryans Yes i am still using the external monitor so I was able to keep going on with my job. The bad thing is that I have a laptop that I am not able to use it as a laptop because I need always the external monitor, keyboard etc.. I miss my old laptop (latitude e5550) but better than having to change jobs.. For some reason, the HDMI output didn't work when I tried.. i don't know why but I am still using the USB C with zero issues. The laptop still using W11 with the last update! Every week the laptop is forced to restart in order to install the last OS updates, driver and bios 🙁 ledsky: What 14-16" (ips?) notebooks, still being sold, are considered generally safe? Price range: 700€, max 950€. My older pc, now broken, was a 15.6" ASUS with Windows 10, maybe a X556? I couldn't find PWM info on notebookcheck because it's 5-6 years old. I'm very sensitive to light (any source) so I had to use low brightness and suffer from its (likely low hz) pwm, using it for very short sessions. Clearly with worse problems in the last years, when I literally thought to stop working. I suspect even non-pwm lights could hurt me, but it's worth a try anyway. I only tested them viewing videos for an hour (non-pwm phone). So, I would use my new notebook for programming and web surfing. The most GPU demanding stuff would be playing twice a month, at max GTA V (medium settings). Nvidia GPU would be cool for CUDA programming, but it's not a must have. Buying a gaming laptop just for the 144+Hz frequency feels overkill for me, as the price skyrockets and heat/noise is annoying. Never tried anything above 60Hz. I know about Windows 7 being safer than 10, which has problems with later builds and 11 being in between, but still bad. An older OS is not a problem. I'm also reading that some new gpus have unavoidable temporal dithering. What is a reliable setup I can try? Possibly from EU markets. I don't mind if it's 4 years old, if it's safe. Alyosha2001: A working setup can't be recommended, as the screen can (and will) vary. If you are not yet compelled to Wirus 10 or 11, a tested almost paper like setup is consisted of B156HAN01.1 screen, intel gpu with drivers not newer than 2015, ditherig 1.7 and Win8.1. The display is eDP 30 pin FHD and can be fitted to any compatible laptop that is max Intel gen 7. Lauda89: In cases where a laptop has both integrated and dedicated GPU, is the HDMI port connected to the dedicated GPU or always to the integrated GPU? For example, the samsung Galaxy Book3 ultra which has both intel and nvidia's 4050 GPU. Thanks Seagull: Lauda89 Used to be (and probably still is) in laptops that the discrete GPU just renders frames and sends them to the integrated GPU. So I'd expect the everything will go through the integrated GPU, including the HDMI. Donux: Quad43 Which laptop do you use with it? Some other folks in this forum suggest that zenscreen is not good for macbook air m1, perhaps due to temporal dithering issue Aquila: What about Acer Swift X SFX14? caoyirui: ThaCMaster Are there cheaper alternatives to the 2070 RTX Razer Blade PRO but are equally good to the eyes? caboy: ryans Which xps 13? There seems to be a new model every year or so. I have tried ditherig and have not had any success with it. It does not give a status message or anything when I try to run it. reaganry: ThaCMaster i tried that ionic gut stuff - is it still working for you?